Queer Design Club with Rebecca Brooker
Rebecca Brooker is the co-founder of Queer Design Club, an organization celebrating work that happens at the intersection of queer identity and design worldwide. Rebecca talks about growing up queer in Trinidad, the difficulties she faced with her US work visa, and the circumstances that inspired her to co-found Queer Design Club. We discuss some of the results of the second Queer Design Count and learn what attendees of the first-ever Queer Design Summit on July 7 can expect.
Adrian Tennant: Coming up in this episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS.
Rebecca Brooker: I would say our mission today is really focused on creating a more equitable and equal environment for LGBTQ+ people in the workplace, specifically the design industry.
Adrian Tennant: You’re listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, fresh perspectives on the business of advertising produced weekly by Bigeye: a strategy-led, full-service creative agency, growing brands for clients globally. Hello, I’m your host, Adrian Tennant, Chief Strategy Officer. Thank you for joining us. Although Pride Month may have ended, the challenge of reflecting and representing the diversity of consumers identifying as LGBTQIA+ continues year-round. A study published by Bigeye’s research partner, GWI, found that among US internet users, age 16 and above, 42 percent of those who identify as members of the LGBTQIA+ community, consider themselves outspoken on the issues that they care about, compared to just a third of other users. Sixty-three percent of LGBTQ+ members believe that we should be more open about mental health, compared with 49 percent of other users. And GWI’s data found around one-half of all LGBTQ+ members want brands to support diversity and equity in the workplace compared to just under one-third of other users. To talk about the LGBTQIA+ community, especially those working in the field of design, our guest this week is Rebecca Brooker. Originally from Trinidad and Tobago, Rebecca studied graphic design in New York City, where, after graduating in 2017, she worked for several organizations. In 2018, she moved to Argentina to join Media Monks. In 2019, Rebecca co-founded Queer Design Club, an organization that celebrates work that happens at the intersection of queer identity and design worldwide. Today, Rebecca is Art Director with the Washington DC-based agency, Ghost Note, the co-chair of Queer Design Club, and leads her own independent design business, Planthouse Studio. To talk about her very busy life, Rebecca is joining us today from her home in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Rebecca, welcome to IN CLEAR FOCUS.
Rebecca Brooker: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.
Adrian Tennant: Now, Rebecca, you are originally from Trinidad and Tobago. Were you always interested in pursuing a career in design?
Rebecca Brooker: Not until I really understood what design was. In high school, I was very much using a cracked version of Photoshop and just making posters and flyers and doing these Photoshop tutorials online at the time. And for me at that moment, a student being 15/16 years old, I was very convinced that was what graphic design was and I wanted to do more of that. So I had this initial interest in putting things together, using design to solve visual problems, and communicating information. But it wasn’t until I left Trinidad to go to school in New York, that I really started to study design, and really understood that it’s more than just the visuals. It’s really a problem-solving method in a way that I had never really perceived design to be before. That was really when I fell in love with design was when I started studying it and I had so many questions. I was so curious. So, in this space of play with my work where anything was possible, anything is possible. And that was really what made me fall in love with a career in design and made me stay in the industry.
Adrian Tennant: I’ve heard you say that you came out as queer in your mid-teens. Is Caribbean culture accepting of LGBTQIA+ identities? What was your experience like after you came out?
Rebecca Brooker: Yeah. I first came out to my mom when I was around 16. And I didn’t come out because I wanted to, I came out because she found me scribbling love notes to a girl in my notebook. So the coming out was involuntary, but Caribbean culture is tough on the queer community. There historically has not been a large queer community in Trinidad that’s open and active. So I didn’t grow up seeing a lot of the queerness that we see now on television, that we see in our daily lives, that we see in a world that is more open and accepting. I didn’t have that 16 years ago and I think a lot of people in the Caribbean still don’t have that. So Caribbean culture on a whole has a lot of progression to do still on the way that they can treat and understand LGBTQ people. And I think that really comes because the Caribbean itself is born out of a lot of experiences of colonialism, a lot of experiences of slavery, where even if you were gay in those times, it definitely was not okay to come out and say that. And so we have a lot of grandfather laws that really like actually prohibit and make it illegal for people to be openly queer, right? So when there are still systems in place to criminalize being LGBTQ in the Caribbean, it’s not really creating that safe space that people need to believe that the culture is changing.
Adrian Tennant: You studied design in New York. After you graduated, you stayed on to pursue various work opportunities, but I understand that the conditions under which you left the US and ultimately landed a role in Argentina were pretty stressful. Could you tell us a bit about that?
Rebecca Brooker: Yeah after I left Trinidad and I started studying in New York, you know, I was an international student. I was going through like a roller coaster, basically, because on one hand, I had this new environment that was much more accepting of my personal identity and much more just freeing for who I wanna be, and how I wanna explore myself. I was, at the same time, studying design, doing really well in my pursuit of kicking off my career with great opportunities. And so I was at the time working at Compass, a luxury real estate company based in New York. And things were going pretty well, you know, I was making a good set of money. I had a nice apartment. My partner and I were together for two or three years at that point. And, things were really feeling stable and as an international student, I was also pursuing my H-1B visa at the same time. And, my employer was handling the application and everything through their lawyers. The H-1B – for people who don’t know – is an employment-based visa. And I was in this period of waiting for them to tell me if the visa was picked in the visa lottery, and you know, waiting, waiting, waiting. And then one day, I got an email that literally said, “Your visa was not picked in the lottery. You have until the end of August to leave the country. And if you don’t leave the country, you’re gonna get banned because you have overstayed your welcome.” And this was at that point, I was living in New York for about six years, and at that moment, you know, I just felt my world was turned upside down. The rug was pulled out from under me just enjoying my life and then being, “You have to leave this country. You are going to have to leave your job. You cannot continue to live here and you have three weeks to do it.” And usually, you have actually like around 60 or 90 days, I can’t remember, a longer time period, but the lawyers that my company had been working with failed to notify me the moment that the visa had been denied. So I had lost a bunch of time waiting to find out that the visa had been denied when I could have been using that time to prepare for leaving if I had a full two or three months’ notice. So it was a really stressful situation and a real turning point in my life where I had to figure out what was gonna be my next move. I returned home to Trinidad for a while. I took a bit of a break from design and kind of just was unemployed for a month. And then I got this opportunity to go to Argentina and work for Media Monks. Media Monks was at the time signing a contract with my old employer, Compass, and they said, you know, “We need a designer to go help us build the team. We think you’d be great for the job.” And I said, “I have literally nothing else going on right now. So I will go.” And that was how I ended up landing on my feet in Buenos Aires.
Adrian Tennant: And how’s your Spanish going today?
Rebecca Brooker: I arrived without knowing an ounce of Spanish. And now I could say I could pretty much hold my own in a fairly fluent conversation. So…
Adrian Tennant: That’s immersion for you. Total immersion.
Rebecca Brooker: Vamos!
Adrian Tennant: So Rebecca, today you are an Art Director at Ghost Note agency. Could you tell us about your role there and some of the clients that you’ve been working with recently?
Rebecca Brooker: Yeah, Ghost Note is a small, Black-owned, and Black-founded agency, out of Washington, DC. They’ve been around for almost 10 years now. And through the pandemic, they took some time to reconfigure what the agency looks like, and what they wanna pursue, and really came out stronger on the other side of the pandemic, by hiring a new Creative Director, a new Art Director, hiring a few new designers – and we’ve been a real force to work with these past few months. We’ve been working with amazing clients like Nike. We recently did the rebrand for Smithsonian’s Anacostia Community Museum in Washington, DC. That was an amazing project that just meant a lot of impact in my life. Like I always wanted to work with museums. I’m super interested in art, but being able to rebrand a museum in a historically Black community in a historically Black neighborhood, and actually, America’s first community museum, meant a lot to me to be able to work on that project and lead that rebrand. Most recently, we’re actually currently working on the identity for the Center for Journalism and Democracy at Howard University, which is being led by Nikole Hannah-Jones. Nikole Hannah-Jones is an American journalist who founded The 1619 Project which was featured by the New York Times. An amazing, incredible, Black journalist who is really about to change the future of journalism by creating the Center to really help educate Black students and students that attend historically Black universities in long-form investigative journalism. So that’s a project that again, feels really dear to me. And part of the reason I love working at Ghost Note is that we get to have opportunities to make work that feels very impactful in places where my perspective matters. Like my perspective is a queer, mixed-race immigrant person is important and this is the first time in my career that I feel like I get to channel some of that into the work to make a difference. And intersectionality is a huge part of my life. I’ve always lived an intersectional life, you know, being a mixed-race person from Trinidad. It’s something that in Trinidad, I look white, and in the states, I look Black, and it’s always been a conundrum of like, you know, in Trinidad where a lot of people are multiracial, a lot of people are mixed, I never had to answer the question of “What are you?” to an extent, or “What race are you?” or “Who are you? What’s your heritage, what’s your background?” And I got that question a lot more when I moved to the states. Like it was the first time that I actually had to consider and I took a DNA test to find out, ’cause I was like, “I don’t know who I am.” If you ask me, my dad looks Black. My mom looks mixed race. We have Spanish, Chinese, and Indian in the family, like it’s such a diverse culture that it wasn’t until very late in my teens that I started to ask and look for questions like “Who am I?” and “What is my identity that I’m bringing to a table?”, aside from just being gay, you know? And so I feel intersectionality is a real, it’s a real focus for me. And I think part of why I do so much work in the queer community and in the spaces that I can through design is because we always have these conversations in silos, where we put people in things where they can only be one thing at a time. It’s Pride Month. So you have to be gay right now. It doesn’t matter if you’re gay and Black. It doesn’t matter if you’re gay and Asian. It’s Pride Month. So it’s all about being gay. And there’s not a lot there, usually there isn’t a lot of room for nuance. And that’s something that I’m super interested in creating more of just in my world and the worlds I’m interacting with.
Adrian Tennant: Rebecca, you are also the co-founder of Queer Design Club. Could you explain what prompted you to create the organization?
Rebecca Brooker: After I graduated from college, I was looking for a place to really find that community, that intersectional community that we’re talking about, and realized that I wanted to find queer people who were also interested in design. And I knew a handful of them like I could see people on Twitter, and Instagram, but you know, when you put in “queer graphic design” on Google, you actually wouldn’t have gotten a lot of search results about four years ago. We saw that as an opportunity to really found a community for queer people to come together, for them to meet each other, to share the contributions that we’ve made to the industry, to uplift each other, and kind of share tips for navigating a very straight, white heterosexual world. And that was the beginning, it was something that just really started as a hobby. Like we just wanted to talk to other queer graphic designers and people that worked in the industry and bond over that. And from there, it’s grown to be this massive community that is like a lifeline for some people. You come here and you can find advice on how to get your first job in design. You can find portfolio reviews. People are willing to look at your resume and give you advice. And we didn’t even know how many people needed that until we founded the space and found out. So now we’ve identified more than just a fun social space, where we were just looking for extending our friendships. We’ve really started to develop a mission, a vision, and values that we wanna hold for our community because it’s become such a precious space.
Adrian Tennant: So how do you describe Queer Design Club’s mission today?
Rebecca Brooker: I would say our mission today is really focused on creating a more equitable and equal environment for LGBTQ+ people in the workplace, specifically the design industry. We work primarily with designers because design, as a field, is actually incredibly welcoming to queer people. It’s a very open field. It’s a natural way to express yourself creatively and with the move towards a lot of online education and learning, the barrier to getting into design has significantly lowered. So you no longer have to attend the RISDs and the SCADs and get a four-year degree in graphic design. You can pop over on YouTube and get this for free. So we have a lot more junior people who are coming to design, and by extension to tech, because it’s an industry where there’s a lot of opportunities, the salaries are super high-paying and are life-changing for someone who may be coming from a background of not having access to money. If you are a Black, queer, disabled person, getting into design in the tech industry may be your way of getting to that next financial level that can help you find a stable place to live. It may help you afford gender-affirming care for yourself. There are a lot of reasons why queer people would want to come into design. But the thing we’ve noticed is there are not the means to support queer people in design right now. So our mission is really to help companies and help others build up that support network to make sure that when queer people come into the industry, where they have an environment where they can thrive and where they wanna stay.
Adrian Tennant: Let’s take a short break. We’ll be right back after these messages.
Adrian Tennant: Each month, in partnership with our friends at Kogan Page, The Bigeye Book Club features interviews with authors who are experts in specific areas of marketing, consumer research, and customer experience. Our featured book for July is Future-Ready Retail: How to Reimagine the Customer Experience, Rebuild Retail Spaces, and Reignite our Shopping Malls and Streets, by Ibrahim Ibrahim, a futurist, retail strategist, and designer. IN CLEAR FOCUS listeners can save 20 percent on a print or electronic version of the book with exclusive promo code BIGEYE20. This code is valid for all products and pre-orders and applies to Kogan Page’s free e-book offer. To order your copy of Future-Ready Retail, go to KoganPage.com – that’s K O G A N, P A G E dot com.
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Adrian Tennant: Welcome back. I’m talking with Rebecca Brooker, Art Director at Ghost Note agency and the co-founder of Queer Design Club, a community where LGBTQ+ designers can celebrate their contributions to the industry, share work, and connect with each other. The initiative that brought you to my attention was the research study you conducted called the Queer Design Count. Now, before we discuss some of the findings, can you explain why you decided to undertake a research study in the first place?
Rebecca Brooker: Yes, when we first were founding the community, one of the questions that we had was like, “Who even is our community?” I mentioned that we knew a handful of people on Instagram, on Twitter, but that wasn’t enough for us to make an assumption about who we’re building this thing for. So we started to dive in and look for some data around how many people are queer in the design world. Do we even know? Might we ever know? We may not. But that data wasn’t available, basically. The AIGA design census had one question about are you gay? And it’s a checkbox, yes or no. So we had a little sense that this community exists within the industry. We know that. We just need to find out how to reach them and what they’re experiencing. So we started the Queer Design Count as the first and only design industry survey specifically directed towards LGBTQ people. And the goal with that is to really better understand the queer experience that people are having in design. Are you making more money than straight cis-people? Are we making less? How visible are we in leadership roles? How junior are we in the industry? Are we getting equal pay? Things like these were questions that we started to ask ourselves that we didn’t have answers to. And the only way that we can find out was to ask the community directly. Over the past two years, we’ve really found this to be our niche in something that is a really ownable piece of work for us because we actually have been able to identify a lot of problems and put concrete data behind the things that we know to be true about our experience. So now, we’re kind of using this as our north star and our guide to be able to recommend and you know, propose solutions for the industry that will make it more equitable towards queer people. And that’s something that we really are interested in working with other companies on, we’re interested in working with nonprofits on. We wanna continue being able to pulse-check our community and say, every June people show up and say, we support queer people. Is the needle moving? Is something changing? Or is this just lip service that we continue to do year after year? And the Count is really our way of finding out.
Adrian Tennant: Now I believe you’ve published two counts so far. Is that correct?
Rebecca Brooker: Yes, we published the first one in 2019 and we are publishing the 2021 version of the count as well, which we’ve been just finalizing with all of the data and the stories that we heard through the pandemic. There was a lot to understand and to parse through about how the queer experience has changed, especially in light of the pandemic. This report is really dear to my heart. We ask people some tough questions in a time when lives were very tough and that is reflected in some of the data that we saw.
Adrian Tennant: In what ways did learnings from the first Queer Design Count inform your approach to the questions you asked for this second study?
Rebecca Brooker: That’s a great question. The first count, I would say, was really our first shot in the dark at trying to put together what we thought would be a very complete survey. And I think the challenges myself nor my co-founder John had – we’re not research analysts at all. We’re not researchers, this isn’t our everyday work, but we tried our best to be as robust and complete and ask people as many and as few questions as possible to keep them engaged. And I think with that being said, you know, the first time we couldn’t capture everything all the way around. So we didn’t get to ask questions around people’s disabilities. We didn’t get to ask questions about how many students and what student life was like. We didn’t get to dive super deep into some of the intersections that I would’ve wanted to the second time around. So when we were considering, how would we change or shift some things in the 2021 report, we obviously wanted to keep it similar enough that we can have comparative data or year over year, but we also wanted to add in new sections for asking people about their disability, asking people about how that may affect them in terms of like physical disability or is it something more like neurodivergence? There were a lot of questions directed to students that we had the opportunity to ask and realized that maybe we didn’t have enough categories in 2019 when we talk about what industry do you work in? What job do you work in? Are you a student? Are you full-time? Are you freelance? And I think going through the first one helped us better set up a more intersectional and robust second year with the addition of the COVID section. That was a huge new section that, fingers crossed, will be unique to our 2021 report. But it was important for us to ask people about their experience through the pandemic because we knew that so much had shifted and it wouldn’t have been fair or equal to survey people about income or about their titles or roles at work without the consideration that we’re going through a global pandemic, a huge, resignation of jobs, and that there is a lot of data that we want to find out around there.
Adrian Tennant: What are some of the key statistics from the second study that have been most surprising to you?
Rebecca Brooker: I think a lot of the data that came out around people’s experience in the pandemic was the most surprising to me. One of the things that we found out was that 41 percent of trans designers lost employment in COVID 19 compared to 29 percent of cisgender designers. And for me, that was a hugely unexpected statistic. And I’m personally even still, toying with how we interpret that statistic. Is it that trans designers were pushed to a point where they would prefer to work freelance than full-time and they chose to leave those jobs, in a walk of autonomy and reclaiming the clients and the projects that they work on in a world that is being increasingly anti-trans? There is power in being able to work for yourself. There’s power in being able to be your own boss in that way. If you have the privilege to do. The flip side of that is it might have meant that 41 percent of trans designers got fired. They may have just been straight-up fired. And that’s something that, we really start to look at the testimonials and what people are saying to us to be able to better recommend what we think the analysis behind this stat is. And that’s always a tricky part of writing these reports. you know, we can only hypothesize exactly what people are saying and connect so many dots. But when we start to read some of the testimonials and the things that people are saying, that is really where you see the true colors come to light and you really start to understand just how badly people need support in, not just in design, but in the world. You know, there were a lot of trans people who, with the pandemic and shelter-in-place orders, were forced to return to home, a home that may not be safe, stable, a home where they may be misgendered and dead-named all the time. And there’s just a lot of testimonials around that experience that we saw happening. People losing their jobs and being homeless was another part of it. There was also a great number of people who actually bounced and said, “I lost my job initially, took a couple of months off, but then landed a gig that paid three times as much.” Great. I think there’s a lot that we can say about what we want these stats to say. But really trying to listen to what queer people are actually saying is where we want to focus our analysis of the report.
Adrian Tennant: It’s always interesting when you have a quantitative survey, but you have those qualitative open ends. I’m curious, how many respondents did you have for the second wave?
Rebecca Brooker: Yeah, we had 1,377 respondents in the second survey. The first survey, in 2019, we had close to 1100 or so. And this is actually pretty on par with what the AIGA design census responses were like. Now we obviously know that there are more than 1300 queer people in the industry. That’s a given, but when we think about in terms of reach and in terms of how we may be messaging this survey out, it’s pretty on par and I think that’s a great thing to say. The AIGA design census is open to everyone who can participate and they have almost 1500 or so respondents average on a year. Getting close to 1300 queer people I think alone is amazing, and really shows how overrepresented queer people are in the industry.
Adrian Tennant: One of the stats that you shared with me that really stood out: 72 percent of LGBTQIA+ designers experienced some form of discrimination at work. Rebecca, I know it’s a big question. What factors contribute to this do you think? is this discrimination intentional, systemic, or structural?
Rebecca Brooker: I think that it’s a combination of all three, Adrian. Honestly, I think that there are a lot. If you think about the scale of microaggression to macroaggression, it hits on all parts of that spectrum. The discriminatory experience that we saw most people relating to was just the simple acknowledgment of their existence. Like using the right pronouns, giving them the proper email address that’s not a dead name, and email that’s tied to legal documents. On the microaggression front, like I think there are certain things like that as we start to think about queer teams and queer’s perspectives and how, it may feel like you’re being discriminated against in maybe not someone saying something to you, but in their actions. Right? So you may be working on a team with a couple of other designers and let’s say you have to design a form. And the people put in gender binaries, male or female, and they say, “Hey, can you review this form?” And you look at this form and you say, “Hey, I’m non-binary and I don’t have a place on this form. This is not present.” You’re not being seen for who you are. And that is something that is a reason why queer people and honestly, people with all different intersectional identities. Diverse teams on the whole make better projects because you’re able to catch those blind spots. And you’re able to catch these oversights and understand that if I – a queer, mixed-race immigrant – can’t identify with this thing. I can tell you a ton of other people aren’t gonna identify with it either. So this is an oversight. I think on a more systemic basis, when we look at the number of visible queer people out in executive leadership, it also says something about our corporate queer culture, right? And the more visibly queer you are, and the more alternative presenting that you may seem, the tougher time you’re gonna have presenting yourself as a corporate executive. and this is partially why we see trans people and queer people in leadership having such a hard time because there is an expectation that you’re gonna show up and look like a straight white man to be a leader at a corporation. And people start feeling uncomfortable when you know, the creative director is more queer or the CMO or the CTO, you know, I think it, it just corporate queer culture and executive culture is something that we’re still trying to figure out. And I think this is part of why we don’t see as many out corporate people in leadership. So that is a form of discrimination. I think, where, you know, you kind of have to start hiding yourself again and going back into the closet to present in a way that feels acceptable for business. And that’s just not the industry that we want to create.
Adrian Tennant: Oftentimes, research studies just sit on a shelf, getting dusty. That’s definitely not the case with the Queer Design Count. You’re planning to go deeper into the results with a live community event in just a few days’ time. Rebecca, can you tell us about the first-ever Queer Design Summit?
Rebecca Brooker: I would love to! The Queer Design Summit is our first, large community event that, after doing two years of these studies, we really wanted to put it on the main stage and have people talk more about what they experience, have a space for designers to converse with each other in front of an audience, and explain what they interpret by some of the statistics and some of the data, and how their lived experiences may match up to what we’re seeing in the data. And the reason we wanted to do this was because, over the past two years, collectively we’ve surveyed close to 3,000 people and we wanted to be able to further the conversation about this data, especially as we’re coming off the heels of Pride Month and everyone’s company just had some kind of Pride event. What are the queer people really feeling about where we are in the state of the industry? These are questions that we had and we wanted to help facilitate that conversation and also make space for workshops and different places where we may try to find some solutions. For example, we’re working with Meta Lab to have a “How might we?” session, that is gonna help us brainstorm and think about how might we pose solutions or recommendations to some of the things that we talked about on the day of the summit. How do we pose solutions for pay equity and more cultural acceptance of intersectional, queer identities? How do we continue to move queer, Black, and trans people of color to the forefront? There are a lot of questions that we want answers to, and discussions that we want to have around the data that the summit is gonna provide, a great stage and audience for.
Adrian Tennant: If listeners would like to sign up to attend the Queer Design Summit, what can they do so?
Rebecca Brooker: You can sign up over at queerdesign.club/summit, and the summit is gonna be held on July 7th. It’s a one-day conference and it will be starting at 10:00 AM Pacific time. That’s 1:00 PM Eastern time, and we’re gonna have a full day of panels, workshops, and a little bit of an after-party with some Drag Queen Bingo. I think it’s gonna be a really amazing event, Adrian.
Adrian Tennant: Rebecca, if in clear focus, listeners would like to learn more about you and your work, where can they find you?
Rebecca Brooker: You can find me over at RebeccaBrooker.com. Or you can find me @BeckyBrooker on Twitter. I’m pretty active on Twitter, more than on Instagram. So I would love to connect with anyone who wants to have a conversation. Also, feel free to look me up on LinkedIn. I would be happy to connect with anyone who wants to know more about the community or just talk queer design.
Adrian Tennant: And if folks listening are interested in getting involved with Queer Design Club, what’s the best way to do so?
Rebecca Brooker: We would love to have you. We are such an open and welcoming community to anyone who wants to be involved. Queer people can sign up on our directory online if you wanna list yourself. Or you can join our Slack community. Allies, recruiters, anyone who’s looking to reach the queer community and post opportunities, you’re also welcome to join our Slack community. We have several channels for job postings, freelance calls, and open calls. We have advice channels, help, and requests. Anything you may need to ask a queer designer, you can come over to the Slack and we would be more than happy to help.
Adrian Tennant: Rebecca, thank you very much for being our guest on, IN CLEAR FOCUS.
Rebecca Brooker: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to share this with your community.
Adrian Tennant: Thanks to my guest this week, Rebecca Brooker, Art Director at Ghost Note agency, and co-founder of Queer Design Club. You’ll find a transcript with links to the resources we discussed today on the IN CLEAR FOCUS page at Bigeyeagency.com. Just select podcasts from the menu. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider following us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS produced by Bigeye. I’ve been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next week. Goodbye.